Bracer/Gloves/Weapon deflection recipes not working

[vandervecken]

The following recipes:

CATEGORY	Reagents	TAGS	Effects	CasterLevel
450	“NW_IT_GEM005,cft_ess_earth2”	2	“1,1,0,0,0”	8
450	“NW_IT_GEM012,cft_ess_earth3”	2	“1,2,0,0,0”	10
450	“cft_ess_earth4,cft_gem_12”	2	“1,3,0,0,0”	12

are set to use TAGs 2 (armor) when they should be using TAGs 11,1 - these are deflection AC bonus recipes designed for weapons and gloves. The Mage Armor versions of these recipes work fine, but these are the Shield of Faith recipes.

[vandervecken]

Aqvilinus argues that because we have Protection recipes +1-+5, that Deflection recipes intended for GLoves & Weapons (11,1) should instead be made to be just weapons (1).

[kevL]

don't have an opinion atm. Just want to point out that the type (deflection, natural, etc) of AC protection is dependent on the type of item that receives the IP.

[Aqvilinus]

Tag (-2) stands for amulets, rings, boots, belts, cloaks, bracers, gloves and helms.
As KevL said, the type of AC bonus depends on the type of an item (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_class#Sources_of_AC - for NWN1, but the same is true for NWN2).
Amulets - natural armor bonus
Rings, belts, cloak, gloves, helms - deflection bonus
Boots - dodge bonus
Bracers - armor bonus

There's no way to make gloves granting other bonus than deflection. So Protection recipes offer the same benefits and are much better. That's why I made this proposion.

[kevL]

question, how does the engine distinguish between "gloves" and "bracers" during gameplay? Does it differentiate them, or are the two terms simply for human understanding?

[Aqvilinus]

Some item properties (ex: damage and attack bonuses) don't work on bracers when fighting unarmed, but work on gloves. Gloves are treated by the engine more like weapon while bracers more like armor.

[kevL]

ok, I see in BaseItems, gloves have WeaponType 2 while bracers are type 0 (etc)

[kevL]

hmm, methinks this needs tweaking then,

'ginc_crafting'
int GetTccType(object oItem);

    case BASE_ITEM_GLOVES:
    case BASE_ITEM_BRACER: return TCC_TYPE_GLOVES;

ironically there doesn't seem to be any return for TCC_TYPE_WRISTS.

The funct is ofc used to match Tags with the baseitem-type that's in the crafting container (ie, when enchanting an item). A common Tag combination is "11,1" -- ie, TCC_TYPE_WRISTS or TCC_TYPE_MELEE. But if TCC_TYPE_WRISTS is never returned from GetTccType(oItem) then it strikes me that "11" will never get a match!

That Tag combination "11,1" can/could only match true melee weapons at present ...

If I do something, after closer examination, I'll try to keep that tag combination intact for the sake of Crafting.2da; i'd specify that enchanting an item of BASE_ITEM_GLOVES matches up with TCC_TYPE_WRISTS (aka "11"). Because gloves (not bracers) are the items used for attack, just like melee weapons.

That'd mean .. ah sh8t. That'd mean that TCC_TYPE_GLOVES (stress "GLOVES") are 36 (but should be 11, by the terminology). Perhaps I'll just refactor TCC_TYPE_GLOVES -> TCC_TYPE_BRACERS and TCC_TYPE_WRISTS -> TCC_TYPE_GLOVES ......

/needs coffee anyway

edit yeh there's no TAGS=36 that i see in Crafting.2da :
There is "B36" though

[vandervecken]

Perhaps we should make it so that Gloves are weapon-types, not wondrous item types. They have their own set of recipes related to weapons, and can't be given recipes related to generic Wondrous Items?

[kevL]

that makes sense,

also, until i/we figure out what to do with the TCC constant(s) gloves/wrists, focus on something else perhaps ... (up to you, it's not major it's just a thing)

[kevL]

TCC type "11" is working (eg. TAGS="11,1") because

int isTypeMatch(object oItem, string sTypes)

fudges "36" ( TCC_TYPE_GLOVES ) and "11" ( TCC_TYPE_WRISTS ) together, both will match the return from GetTccType() whether the item's base-type is BASE_ITEM_GLOVES or BASE_ITEM_BRACER.

In other words, at present, an item can be enchanted whether its base-type is BASE_ITEM_GLOVES or BASE_ITEM_BRACER against TAGS that specify either "36" ( TCC_TYPE_GLOVES ) or "11" ( TCC_TYPE_WRISTS ).

Note however that if "B" is specified then the baseitem-type of the item needs to match a TAGS exactly -- ie, gloves are gloves and bracers are bracers. i'll Look into restricting the TCC-type matches also

but i'm having 2nd thoughts about this:

Perhaps we should make it so that Gloves are weapon-types, not wondrous item types. They have their own set of recipes related to weapons, and can't be given recipes related to generic Wondrous Items?

... simply because gloves aren't (forged metal) Arms & Armor, magical fighting gloves strike me as some sort of "wondrous item".

[vandervecken]

I agree that they should be created using wondrous items, but the category of enchantments associated with each type are clearly different. Gloves should have a special subset of weapon enchantments that don't work on bracers, and vice versa. If there's an issue with creating them we should make sure we have blueprints available.

[kevL]

Gloves should have a special subset of weapon enchantments that don't work on bracers, and vice versa.

i agree on that, and will be looking into separating TCC gloves from TCC bracers as time permits. I'll try to do it with as little potential damage to Crafting.2da as possible (but no guarantees atm)

[kevL]

in the toolset (item blueprints/templates) baseitem gauntlets (aka gloves) all have "Gloves" in their names and baseitem bracers all have "Bracers" in theirs.

that's good.

gloves have all sorts of IPs assigned, many of them combat-oriented but some having nothing to do with combat (think, Gloves of Appraisal, etc).

bracers, on the other hand, are mostly about bonus AC and bonus Dexterity, although there are other ips like bonus feats, immunities, cast spell, etc.

so far so good.

here's the rub:
rows 1159..1162 and 1257..1259 are MotB recipes for DexterityBonus +3..+9

but they're TAGGED "B36" baseitem type gloves -- that's not a big deal, it allows a crafter to enchant gloves instead of bracers w/ +Dex (note that there are other recipes that enchant TAGS=Any with +Dex, using different reagents and required Feat)

NOTE: I'm just blabbing trying to get this in my head, it's not big concerns.

but rows like these look a bit odd; they're all +4Dex

note for example the level difference

[vandervecken]

Yes they're odd. They're here:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/922154-neverwinter-nights-2/faqs/50274
The recipe on the top and bottom are explicitly based on Mask of the Betrayer.
The top one is for high level crafting with essences only. At that level you don't even need a gem.
The bottom one is for Spirit Essences with Mold Spirit - a recipe only the soul eater can perform.
The middle one is the standard recipe.

I don't think this is something worth worrying about.

I do think it's notable that Gloves have certain favoured non-combat recipes, like Dex and Appraisal. We shouldn't mess with that. I'm not sure if that means we should allow all wondrous item recipes on gloves though.

On another note, I'm away for much of this weekend, so will be in touch sporadically.

[kevL]

ok/ ok

am going to do some refactoring of the TCC_TYPE_* constants and see what jumps out as worthwhile,